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[Music]

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joy listening to the hidden trade show

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with Jim Breslow find us at hidden

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truths show.com follow us on Facebook

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that hidden trade show watch our YouTube

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channel he didn't read show please

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subscribe rate and review us under

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podcast down here's Jim Fresno welcome

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back to the hidden truth show today we

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have a distinguished law professor

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author and host of the criminal

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injustice podcast David Harris Harris is

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promoting his brand-new book a city

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divided race fear and the law in police

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confrontations it tells the true story

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of an 18 year old Jordan miles and three

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Pittsburgh police officers Jordan a high

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school honors student with no police

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record encounters the police outside his

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home he emerges from the confrontation

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bruised and beaten the police charged

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him with serious crimes he swears he did

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nothing wrong when the story becomes

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public an American city faces protests

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deep division in a long quest for

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justice the book takes an in-depth look

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at the opposing stories and a trace and

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the fear it incites to find answers

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Harris and I have a much-needed open

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discussion about race and police in

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America without fear and without regard

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to political correctness we talk about

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whether applying stereotypes to blacks

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is inherently racist we discuss the talk

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that black parents feel obligated to

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give their children about interaction

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with the police is the talk really

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necessary what exactly is the talk what

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should it be and shouldn't the talk be

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given by all parents to all children

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before we get to the interview I want to

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remind you about our new membership

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offer for just $5 per month you can

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become a truther your membership

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entitles you to special episodes

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personal emails from me email access to

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me and an embroidered truth or baseball

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cap and for those of you enjoying our

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series on Tic Tac ufo's we have a

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special episode for members we have

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released the daily stars recording of

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Simon Green's interview of Mike turbo

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and me for those of you still trying to

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figure out whether turbo is to be

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believed this is a must listen

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so join us now go to patreon.com/scishow

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patreon.com slash hidden truth show to

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join we have to support independent

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voices in the media with the obvious

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bias of CNN MSNBC and Fox News and

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Silicon Valley conglomerates picking and

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choosing what speech is permitted it's

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going to patreon and becoming a truther

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for just $5 per month okay now for our

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interview with law professor David

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Harris about his book race fear and the

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law I started by asking Harris to tell

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us the true story behind the book and

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please excuse the technical difficulties

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in this interview you'll notice my voice

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sounds a little funny in the first 10

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minutes we get it corrected after about

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10 minutes of the interview this story

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starts just about 10 years ago here in

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Pittsburgh in a neighborhood called

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Homewood um what is your typical high

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crime area in an urban setting and it

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involves four people three plainclothes

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Pittsburgh police officers who are

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tasked with finding guns and drugs in

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high crime areas and a high school

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senior named Jordan miles this incident

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was violent and people got hurt but if

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there was one incident there are very

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clearly two different stories from the

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police point of view what the police say

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is that they were patrolling down one of

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the streets in this neighborhood and

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they saw a man look heeler 'king up

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against a house they came around to

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confront the man the man stopped when

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they told him to started to answer their

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questions but they saw immediately they

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thought that he was armed they saw

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telltale signs from their training and

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he when the man began to run away the

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police tackled him they had to use

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physical force to subdue him and after

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they did that and the was on they saw

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the man the man's hand go toward his

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pocket where they had seen the tell-tale

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bulge of a gun and in that moment you

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know fear hit everybody they feared

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they're going to be shot so they they

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began to really beat the guy and hit him

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hard in the head and finally he gave up

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the struggle they searched him and

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didn't find a gun didn't find a gun in

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his pocket didn't find a gun anywhere

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but they arrested him and charged him

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with felonies how badly was he beaten he

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was badly beaten enough that his face

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was terribly disfigured and some hair

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seemed to have been pulled out of his

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scalp and he he was it was beaten badly

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enough that when his mother first saw

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him when he was bailed out of jail she

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did not recognize him his stories is

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different he comes out of the house he

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sees three very large men jump out of a

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car they're dressed like regular people

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not like police the cars done marked and

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they start screaming at him where are

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your guns where's your drugs where's

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your money

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and he thought he was going to be robbed

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so he immediately tried to run and the

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men were around him like that they beat

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him and finally he gave up when he was

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hit in the head he was then that was his

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point where he said I thought I was

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gonna die

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and he didn't realize that they were

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police and so much later this doubles

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story if you like one incident two

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stories

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there's lots in the book about what

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happened and I'm confident readers will

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be able to come to their own conclusions

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but the bigger question here is why this

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happened how did this relatively small

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five six hundred fifty pound kid who

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goes to the art school in Pittsburgh

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who's a viola player never had any

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trouble with cops of any kind is on the

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honor roll how does he end up at the

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bottom of a pile of very large policemen

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beating on him how does that happen how

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does it keep happening every day in

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cities all over the country those are

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the questions that really intrigued me I

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mean for one thing it was right on my

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doorstep in less than two miles from

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where I live and it just divided our

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city but for me the real question was

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why this keeps happening whether there's

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anything we could do to keep it from

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being a constant occurrence yeah

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and it's it's all these kind of

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individual incidents that incite these

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days of protest

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that's right rage and a lot of strong

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feelings if did that very thing here yes

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yet each one of these incidents is so

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unique yours in particular that you

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wrote about is especially unique

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considering the fact that the officers

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were in plain clothes yes so I guess my

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first question is why were they in plain

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clothes as opposed to in their uniforms

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it's it's not too unusual to have

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plainclothes officers in an unmarked car

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for purposes of surreptitious patrols

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yeah this was a special unit and the

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task of this unit was to find guns and

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drugs not to respond to 9-1-1 calls

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let's say or emergencies of any kind but

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to just beyond kind of stealth patrol

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through these heavy crime areas looking

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for the violence and the causes of

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violence yeah I've never heard of that

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before I don't know that much about

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policing I guess I just kind of assumed

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that you go and plainclothes if you're

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surveilling somebody and don't want to

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be seen but just general patrolling of a

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bad neighborhood in plain clothes let me

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get your quick analysis of that do you

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think that's yeah I think what they were

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yes I think it's a good question and I

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think what they would tell you is that

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this is a form of surveillance that they

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are you know they're going around the

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neighborhood and and and not supposed to

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be recognized so that people who are out

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there and up to no good

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they'll have a chance to catch them

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unawares now this has real problems as

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far as being so-called undercover it's

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three white guys in a black neighborhood

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I mean that doesn't sound very discreet

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to me well and that was a point that

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came up a number of times during the

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trial both in terms of the the utility

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of that whether that's a good idea but

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also because the implication was well

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then you just have to know they were

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police in point of fact there are white

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people in that neighborhood on a regular

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basis some live there though the

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majority of population is black some do

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business there there are trades people

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they come and go and some are up to no

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good

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so it's more

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than all one-race but the real problem

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is here that these units are often under

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a lot less control and supervision than

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regular uniformed units who have to

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respond these guys are kind of out there

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on their own and it can be a recipe for

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things going wrong we've seen this in

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other cities too where you have these

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specialized units who really are kind of

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given a lot more autonomy than the

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regular patrol officer things can go bad

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if you don't have good people in place

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well again if they're trying to surveil

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and be semi undercover

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it would tend to make sense that perhaps

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they would engage with this person

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without immediately disclosing that they

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are police yeah

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and that's that is the interesting point

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they they were very specific the

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officers were when they testified we

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immediately got out of the car and

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announced Pittsburgh police and held up

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our badges that they wear on a lanyard

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around their necks of course the kid

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says they didn't do that did they're

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three stories vary in any way in that

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regard no they did not they were they

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were very consistent these are very

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experienced officers they've testified

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dozens and dozens of times in court

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written even more reports than that so

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they're their stories were all

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consistent and how were their individual

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records these three police officers any

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prior record of bad behavior well there

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was there were some records of this kind

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of thing happening before that they

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would come upon a person simply get out

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of the vehicle and start in on them

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without so much as announcing who they

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were but that in evidence did not make

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it into court the judge did not allow it

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to come in because these were

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disciplinary records and they were

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thought to be highly prejudicial so the

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judge kept them out and away from the

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jurors wow that's surprising so you're

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saying there was prior record of these

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very same officers not announcing that

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they were police officers I found at

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least one documented incident like that

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and according to what I found there were

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others too there are other disciplinary

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infractions

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had been noted by their supervisors but

276
00:11:18,079 --> 00:11:16,559
all of that was kept out of the trial

277
00:11:19,849 --> 00:11:18,089
when I say the trial I mean it was a

278
00:11:22,489 --> 00:11:19,859
civil trial the officers were not

279
00:11:24,349 --> 00:11:22,499
charged criminally the federal

280
00:11:28,909 --> 00:11:24,359
government and the district attorney did

281
00:11:31,159 --> 00:11:28,919
not bring charges so it seems to me my

282
00:11:32,659 --> 00:11:31,169
analysis of it again I haven't read the

283
00:11:35,389 --> 00:11:32,669
book but read quite a bit about it and

284
00:11:37,399 --> 00:11:35,399
seeing some of your interviews and about

285
00:11:40,579 --> 00:11:37,409
this is that it there very well could be

286
00:11:42,979 --> 00:11:40,589
an innocent explanation on both sides

287
00:11:44,629 --> 00:11:42,989
it's very possible that they did

288
00:11:46,579 --> 00:11:44,639
announce themselves but the kid didn't

289
00:11:48,439 --> 00:11:46,589
hear them it's dark so perhaps he

290
00:11:50,269 --> 00:11:48,449
doesn't see the badges I see no reason

291
00:11:52,789 --> 00:11:50,279
for this kiddo you're saying was an

292
00:11:56,359 --> 00:11:52,799
exemplary student no prior records no

293
00:11:59,349 --> 00:11:56,369
gang behavior etc why would he go

294
00:12:02,119 --> 00:11:59,359
running if he has nothing to hide right

295
00:12:06,139 --> 00:12:02,129
I think that's the reaction of a lot of

296
00:12:10,189 --> 00:12:06,149
the people and the answer I think can be

297
00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:10,199
number one for from what he said he

298
00:12:14,779 --> 00:12:12,689
heard no identification of them at all

299
00:12:16,429 --> 00:12:14,789
they completely took him by surprise and

300
00:12:19,099 --> 00:12:16,439
he was just terrified he was about to

301
00:12:22,429 --> 00:12:19,109
get robbed or worse and started to run

302
00:12:25,549 --> 00:12:22,439
but even if and I do treat this in the

303
00:12:27,229 --> 00:12:25,559
book even if you assume that he knew

304
00:12:30,289 --> 00:12:27,239
they were police and he denies that but

305
00:12:32,989 --> 00:12:30,299
let's assume that he did no it's not

306
00:12:36,679 --> 00:12:32,999
unreasonable in a situation like that

307
00:12:38,749 --> 00:12:36,689
for a young african-american man to

308
00:12:41,839 --> 00:12:38,759
avoid the police and even run from them

309
00:12:44,419 --> 00:12:41,849
because you know as a black person as he

310
00:12:46,729 --> 00:12:44,429
would but being completely innocent and

311
00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:46,739
doing nothing wrong is not enough to

312
00:12:51,169 --> 00:12:48,569
secure your safety or your freedom

313
00:12:54,199 --> 00:12:51,179
that's a very difficult fact for the

314
00:12:56,419 --> 00:12:54,209
other persons like us to swallow because

315
00:12:59,389 --> 00:12:56,429
we don't live in that world but now

316
00:13:01,369 --> 00:12:59,399
you're in fact his world yeah well now

317
00:13:04,579 --> 00:13:01,379
you're really jumping right into the

318
00:13:06,889 --> 00:13:04,589
part of the controversial stuff and

319
00:13:09,289 --> 00:13:06,899
maybe yeah we'll bounce back and forth a

320
00:13:14,589 --> 00:13:09,299
little bit between the lessons learned

321
00:13:17,929 --> 00:13:14,599
in this incident itself but while

322
00:13:19,579 --> 00:13:17,939
arguably blacks may have reason to fear

323
00:13:22,549 --> 00:13:19,589
police and that's a very controversial

324
00:13:24,980 --> 00:13:22,559
notion and of itself whether blacks

325
00:13:27,470 --> 00:13:24,990
should fear police or not our frame

326
00:13:33,519 --> 00:13:27,480
whether anyone should fear police whites

327
00:13:38,990 --> 00:13:33,529
blacks Asians Hispanics etc but even if

328
00:13:42,290 --> 00:13:39,000
there are is a good basis for a black

329
00:13:45,079 --> 00:13:42,300
kid of his age to fear the police that

330
00:13:48,199 --> 00:13:45,089
is not justification for running away

331
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:48,209
from the police well it's not legal

332
00:13:52,280 --> 00:13:50,490
justification that's for sure if they

333
00:13:53,840 --> 00:13:52,290
have a legal right to stop you and we'll

334
00:13:56,360 --> 00:13:53,850
assume that for purposes of your

335
00:13:58,850 --> 00:13:56,370
question no he's not justified doing an

336
00:14:01,280 --> 00:13:58,860
illegal sense and I don't think that in

337
00:14:03,079 --> 00:14:01,290
the matter of his own safety he may just

338
00:14:04,420 --> 00:14:03,089
think you know I've got to get out of

339
00:14:07,460 --> 00:14:04,430
here

340
00:14:10,160 --> 00:14:07,470
and it's a sad fact but it's a true one

341
00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:10,170
but but it seems to me and again I don't

342
00:14:14,380 --> 00:14:11,490
get it in higher-level something I mean

343
00:14:17,540 --> 00:14:14,390
when you review each of these anecdotal

344
00:14:21,170 --> 00:14:17,550
situations one at a time what you

345
00:14:24,350 --> 00:14:21,180
usually see is a situation where the

346
00:14:26,690 --> 00:14:24,360
individual is not obeying the police is

347
00:14:29,269 --> 00:14:26,700
not doing exactly what they tell them to

348
00:14:32,090 --> 00:14:29,279
do I mean you maybe you've studied this

349
00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:32,100
far more than me in all but I can't

350
00:14:37,190 --> 00:14:34,490
think of a case where I've seen where

351
00:14:39,170 --> 00:14:37,200
the interaction between the individual

352
00:14:41,210 --> 00:14:39,180
and the police was yes sir yes sir

353
00:14:43,220 --> 00:14:41,220
whatever you want sir you know here

354
00:14:45,170 --> 00:14:43,230
here's my arm - here's this this and

355
00:14:48,590 --> 00:14:45,180
that there always seems to be something

356
00:14:50,660 --> 00:14:48,600
where there is some resistance to what

357
00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:50,670
the police officers asking the

358
00:14:56,829 --> 00:14:52,890
individual to do which ends up resulting

359
00:14:59,840 --> 00:14:56,839
in the situation getting escalated so I

360
00:15:01,940 --> 00:14:59,850
was saying I'd be very cautious about us

361
00:15:03,170 --> 00:15:01,950
suggesting that oh you've got good

362
00:15:04,699 --> 00:15:03,180
reason to fear the police so it's

363
00:15:07,220 --> 00:15:04,709
understandable that he runs from the

364
00:15:08,810 --> 00:15:07,230
police because what you what you stop

365
00:15:12,470 --> 00:15:08,820
doing what the officer asks you to do

366
00:15:13,150 --> 00:15:12,480
you're now putting yourself in a bit of

367
00:15:15,920 --> 00:15:13,160
jeopardy

368
00:15:19,519 --> 00:15:15,930
yeah you know I would argue Sara Lee

369
00:15:22,340 --> 00:15:19,529
wrongly so sorry yeah no I I catch your

370
00:15:24,829 --> 00:15:22,350
meaning it's a balancing of risks that's

371
00:15:26,720 --> 00:15:24,839
very clear but you have to keep in mind

372
00:15:29,090 --> 00:15:26,730
is that we don't see all of the

373
00:15:31,370 --> 00:15:29,100
interactions that go perfectly fine we

374
00:15:33,019 --> 00:15:31,380
only see the ones that go wrong and some

375
00:15:35,090 --> 00:15:33,029
of them go wrong on the civilian side

376
00:15:36,980 --> 00:15:35,100
some on the police side some on both I'm

377
00:15:38,390 --> 00:15:36,990
not denying that but there are millions

378
00:15:40,280 --> 00:15:38,400
of others

379
00:15:42,650 --> 00:15:40,290
every day and every year to go just fine

380
00:15:44,380 --> 00:15:42,660
and those work out these are the

381
00:15:48,620 --> 00:15:44,390
smallest number but they are a

382
00:15:51,890 --> 00:15:48,630
consistent pattern and for young black

383
00:15:53,840 --> 00:15:51,900
folks their world is just different than

384
00:15:56,990 --> 00:15:53,850
your world in my world it's simply

385
00:15:59,480 --> 00:15:57,000
different and this this is knowledge

386
00:16:01,430 --> 00:15:59,490
that's handed down generationally it's

387
00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:01,440
their own experience they know it's

388
00:16:05,930 --> 00:16:03,330
different and therefore some of them in

389
00:16:08,000 --> 00:16:05,940
the moment will make a decision that you

390
00:16:10,570 --> 00:16:08,010
and I never would write it so here's

391
00:16:14,930 --> 00:16:10,580
where it gets a little bit circular that

392
00:16:18,700 --> 00:16:14,940
the more that a black person or black

393
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:18,710
people are subscribed to the belief that

394
00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:22,650
the police are to be feared the more

395
00:16:30,440 --> 00:16:26,850
likely they are not to respond properly

396
00:16:32,470 --> 00:16:30,450
when interacting with police causing

397
00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:32,480
then the police to respond differently

398
00:16:41,180 --> 00:16:38,850
to them I the way I was always raised

399
00:16:42,890 --> 00:16:41,190
and thought and taught and so on is that

400
00:16:45,410 --> 00:16:42,900
you do whatever the heck a police

401
00:16:48,110 --> 00:16:45,420
officer tells you to do period you don't

402
00:16:50,120 --> 00:16:48,120
run from you you stop it's yes sir doe

403
00:16:51,650 --> 00:16:50,130
sir yes ma'am this is that you do not

404
00:16:53,960 --> 00:16:51,660
egg on the police

405
00:16:55,460 --> 00:16:53,970
I've got buddies from college who used

406
00:16:56,960 --> 00:16:55,470
to enjoy egging on the police

407
00:17:01,490 --> 00:16:56,970
these aren't black people white people

408
00:17:03,860 --> 00:17:01,500
and it did not go well for them they had

409
00:17:05,900 --> 00:17:03,870
bad they had bad experiences with the

410
00:17:07,970 --> 00:17:05,910
police because they didn't do what I

411
00:17:10,760 --> 00:17:07,980
always do with the police which is yes

412
00:17:12,199 --> 00:17:10,770
or no sir so I say you probably

413
00:17:13,820 --> 00:17:12,209
recognize what I'm seeing is kind of the

414
00:17:16,460 --> 00:17:13,830
circular element that okay on the one

415
00:17:18,440 --> 00:17:16,470
hand all blacks you've got good reason

416
00:17:21,620 --> 00:17:18,450
not to trust the police and if you raise

417
00:17:24,590 --> 00:17:21,630
somebody to believe you got to be

418
00:17:26,870 --> 00:17:24,600
careful about police you're gonna have

419
00:17:30,620 --> 00:17:26,880
situations where a guys running from

420
00:17:32,210 --> 00:17:30,630
police when he should be doing exactly

421
00:17:35,270 --> 00:17:32,220
what the police said and if you run from

422
00:17:36,890 --> 00:17:35,280
the police nothing good happens in those

423
00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:36,900
situations I would agree with you that

424
00:17:42,170 --> 00:17:38,970
nothing good it happens that's for sure

425
00:17:44,840 --> 00:17:42,180
but enough times enough people have

426
00:17:48,020 --> 00:17:44,850
direct experience in your own life and

427
00:17:50,540 --> 00:17:48,030
you have your own experiences with very

428
00:17:52,200 --> 00:17:50,550
negative interactions with the police

429
00:17:54,389 --> 00:17:52,210
because see this work this is

430
00:17:56,850 --> 00:17:54,399
both sides of the interaction this is

431
00:17:59,820 --> 00:17:56,860
not just black people string the police

432
00:18:01,529 --> 00:17:59,830
police fear black people too and I think

433
00:18:04,909 --> 00:18:01,539
we can talk a lot about that if you want

434
00:18:08,639 --> 00:18:04,919
things go wrong because this interaction

435
00:18:10,289 --> 00:18:08,649
has problems on both sides but when

436
00:18:15,230 --> 00:18:10,299
we're what we're talking about is the

437
00:18:18,570 --> 00:18:15,240
situation where somebody like this kid

438
00:18:20,580 --> 00:18:18,580
has heard these stories I mean your

439
00:18:22,649 --> 00:18:20,590
initial question to me is why would he

440
00:18:26,580 --> 00:18:22,659
run why would anybody run you and I

441
00:18:28,769 --> 00:18:26,590
wouldn't but lots of people just don't

442
00:18:31,950 --> 00:18:28,779
live in the same world that you and I do

443
00:18:34,249 --> 00:18:31,960
and because of that there is fear and

444
00:18:37,230 --> 00:18:34,259
difficulty on both sides of these

445
00:18:39,359 --> 00:18:37,240
interactions and things tend to go real

446
00:18:41,009 --> 00:18:39,369
wrong and you look at what's in the

447
00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:41,019
media you look at what's get gets

448
00:18:46,950 --> 00:18:43,570
reported you look at the things that go

449
00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:46,960
terribly catastrophic ly wrong and too

450
00:18:51,450 --> 00:18:49,330
often it does seem to me it involves a

451
00:18:54,180 --> 00:18:51,460
young person of color now they may have

452
00:18:55,769 --> 00:18:54,190
some of a blame in any given situation

453
00:18:58,830 --> 00:18:55,779
you're right any of those could be

454
00:19:01,320 --> 00:18:58,840
different but when that happens that

455
00:19:03,389 --> 00:19:01,330
becomes a narrative that is in the

456
00:19:07,320 --> 00:19:03,399
person's head and they respond to it

457
00:19:09,029 --> 00:19:07,330
yeah but is there a risk that by talking

458
00:19:11,100 --> 00:19:09,039
about cases such as the one you talked

459
00:19:13,619 --> 00:19:11,110
about in your book by elevating these

460
00:19:14,879 --> 00:19:13,629
rare situations to as you point out this

461
00:19:18,450 --> 00:19:14,889
is the exception rather than the rule

462
00:19:20,999 --> 00:19:18,460
that people tend to over blow in their

463
00:19:25,470 --> 00:19:21,009
mind the extent to which cops are racist

464
00:19:26,940 --> 00:19:25,480
or you need to fear cops etc when we all

465
00:19:28,739 --> 00:19:26,950
generally seem to subscribe to the idea

466
00:19:31,379 --> 00:19:28,749
that you know 99 percent are good

467
00:19:34,139 --> 00:19:31,389
there's bad apples but let's not let

468
00:19:36,450 --> 00:19:34,149
those bad apples ruin it for everybody

469
00:19:37,919 --> 00:19:36,460
else and let's not focus on the bad

470
00:19:41,070 --> 00:19:37,929
apples let's focus on the 99 percent

471
00:19:43,190 --> 00:19:41,080
that are good I don't think there's

472
00:19:47,039 --> 00:19:43,200
anything that I could do that would make

473
00:19:49,470 --> 00:19:47,049
that that experience that that that

474
00:19:51,989 --> 00:19:49,480
existing narrative greater than it

475
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:51,999
already is what you find when you talk

476
00:19:58,289 --> 00:19:55,450
to black people is that from the time a

477
00:20:01,080 --> 00:19:58,299
kid is 12 13 14 and certainly by the

478
00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:01,090
time the kid is 15 and 16 getting ready

479
00:20:05,430 --> 00:20:04,090
to drive black parents sit their

480
00:20:08,210 --> 00:20:05,440
children down

481
00:20:10,799 --> 00:20:08,220
and they tell them here is what you do

482
00:20:12,600 --> 00:20:10,809
when you get stopped by the police and

483
00:20:15,899 --> 00:20:12,610
it isn't just the kind of talking to

484
00:20:17,310 --> 00:20:15,909
that you and I got where your daddy your

485
00:20:19,440 --> 00:20:17,320
mom says do everything the police

486
00:20:21,360 --> 00:20:19,450
officer says and better not hear you're

487
00:20:24,749 --> 00:20:21,370
mouthing off these are survival

488
00:20:27,330 --> 00:20:24,759
instructions they are where you put your

489
00:20:30,320 --> 00:20:27,340
hands and here's what you don't do and

490
00:20:33,060 --> 00:20:30,330
don't move and what kind of thing is

491
00:20:36,659 --> 00:20:33,070
instructed in two people from an early

492
00:20:39,450 --> 00:20:36,669
age because parents know the real danger

493
00:20:42,860 --> 00:20:39,460
out there it's already that deep the

494
00:20:45,749 --> 00:20:42,870
danger of me exaggerating it is nil I

495
00:20:49,680 --> 00:20:45,759
wanted to tell this story because it's

496
00:20:51,029 --> 00:20:49,690
important as one thing we can get to see

497
00:20:53,100 --> 00:20:51,039
how we can improve things

498
00:20:54,330 --> 00:20:53,110
oh yeah and for sure I'm not I don't

499
00:20:56,249 --> 00:20:54,340
mean to call out your book I think

500
00:20:58,110 --> 00:20:56,259
talking about these things in and the

501
00:20:59,669 --> 00:20:58,120
issues that it raises is critical and

502
00:21:01,860 --> 00:20:59,679
has the reason don't wanna huh want to

503
00:21:06,539 --> 00:21:01,870
talk to you but you know I do think that

504
00:21:12,570 --> 00:21:06,549
anecdotal bad incidents between blacks

505
00:21:15,029 --> 00:21:12,580
and police can content can tend to make

506
00:21:17,399 --> 00:21:15,039
it appear that this is a problem that's

507
00:21:19,470 --> 00:21:17,409
bigger than it is when when you ask most

508
00:21:22,139 --> 00:21:19,480
people even experts such as yourself you

509
00:21:24,629 --> 00:21:22,149
would still say that hey 99% are good

510
00:21:26,610 --> 00:21:24,639
you there's the 1% that are that are bad

511
00:21:29,249 --> 00:21:26,620
but but I you brought up something

512
00:21:30,690 --> 00:21:29,259
that's top of mind for me as far as I

513
00:21:33,450 --> 00:21:30,700
something I wanted to talk about with

514
00:21:35,430 --> 00:21:33,460
you in this interview and that is the

515
00:21:36,539 --> 00:21:35,440
talk because that's what it's kind of

516
00:21:38,580 --> 00:21:36,549
called these days and that's what you're

517
00:21:39,450 --> 00:21:38,590
referring to there what yes like parents

518
00:21:43,889 --> 00:21:39,460
having the talk

519
00:21:46,019 --> 00:21:43,899
so start by just walking me through best

520
00:21:50,070 --> 00:21:46,029
that you understand it from what you've

521
00:21:52,999 --> 00:21:50,080
heard and so on what is the talk exactly

522
00:21:56,369 --> 00:21:53,009
what does the parent say to the child

523
00:21:58,049 --> 00:21:56,379
well if you'd like to actually have your

524
00:21:59,610 --> 00:21:58,059
listeners or viewers get in a sort of

525
00:22:01,649 --> 00:21:59,620
first-hand look there's a video out

526
00:22:04,649 --> 00:22:01,659
there I'd highly recommend called dear

527
00:22:07,590 --> 00:22:04,659
child you can find it on YouTube what

528
00:22:10,230 --> 00:22:07,600
the talk is is how a parent will

529
00:22:14,369 --> 00:22:10,240
instruct a kid usually if driving aged

530
00:22:16,080 --> 00:22:14,379
about the realities of the world if they

531
00:22:18,810 --> 00:22:16,090
don't know them already they have to

532
00:22:21,450 --> 00:22:18,820
know that police are going to pay extra

533
00:22:23,940 --> 00:22:21,460
attention to you because of how you look

534
00:22:25,950 --> 00:22:23,950
because you are black because you are

535
00:22:27,389 --> 00:22:25,960
brown you are going to get extra

536
00:22:30,360 --> 00:22:27,399
attention and some of that attention

537
00:22:33,060 --> 00:22:30,370
will not be positive in fact some of it

538
00:22:35,549 --> 00:22:33,070
is going to be very negative and what

539
00:22:39,990 --> 00:22:35,559
the parent instructs the child to do is

540
00:22:44,519 --> 00:22:40,000
to never lose their cool to do exactly

541
00:22:50,070 --> 00:22:44,529
and only what the police officer says to

542
00:22:53,330 --> 00:22:50,080
do to keep hands in view at all times

543
00:22:57,029 --> 00:22:53,340
unless instructed to do something else

544
00:23:00,720 --> 00:22:57,039
if something is said that is rude or

545
00:23:03,690 --> 00:23:00,730
nasty or even racist do not be provoked

546
00:23:05,549 --> 00:23:03,700
do not say anything nobody can win an

547
00:23:08,940 --> 00:23:05,559
argument on the street except a police

548
00:23:12,509 --> 00:23:08,950
officer and what we the parents are

549
00:23:15,119 --> 00:23:12,519
worried about is your physical safety we

550
00:23:18,029 --> 00:23:15,129
want you to come home and therefore

551
00:23:19,529 --> 00:23:18,039
these instructions are paramount if we

552
00:23:21,659 --> 00:23:19,539
have a complaint we'll take it to the

553
00:23:24,980 --> 00:23:21,669
police department afterwards we'll be

554
00:23:29,009 --> 00:23:24,990
with you for that but out there you must

555
00:23:32,129 --> 00:23:29,019
survive you must survive because this is

556
00:23:35,369 --> 00:23:32,139
a situation in which young people of

557
00:23:38,460 --> 00:23:35,379
color get killed and we don't want that

558
00:23:40,499 --> 00:23:38,470
to happen to you that's really that the

559
00:23:45,029 --> 00:23:40,509
guts of it do we know whether Jordan

560
00:23:47,399 --> 00:23:45,039
miles had had the talk what I do know is

561
00:23:49,769 --> 00:23:47,409
that he didn't drive yet so I don't

562
00:23:52,590 --> 00:23:49,779
think he had I think I remember asking

563
00:23:55,499 --> 00:23:52,600
about that and in point of fact what I

564
00:23:57,840 --> 00:23:55,509
remember learning was that he was raised

565
00:23:59,480 --> 00:23:57,850
by his mother and his grandmother his

566
00:24:02,850 --> 00:23:59,490
father wasn't really in a picture and

567
00:24:04,440 --> 00:24:02,860
his mother and grandmother he said and

568
00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:04,450
they repeated this to me in separate

569
00:24:09,799 --> 00:24:06,850
interviews and all we told him respect

570
00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:09,809
police they're there to help you and

571
00:24:14,430 --> 00:24:12,490
there was a gentleman who was sometimes

572
00:24:16,740 --> 00:24:14,440
in the home as a friend who was a police

573
00:24:18,810 --> 00:24:16,750
officer and Jordan said I admired him he

574
00:24:20,700 --> 00:24:18,820
was a nice man and so forth so he

575
00:24:24,210 --> 00:24:20,710
doesn't sound like the type of kid that

576
00:24:26,220 --> 00:24:24,220
would have run if he knew that they were

577
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:26,230
police I know you're saying doesn't it

578
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:27,850
can't understand a ball that maybe he

579
00:24:32,010 --> 00:24:30,730
did run and know the police but really

580
00:24:37,290 --> 00:24:32,020
it seems

581
00:24:39,420 --> 00:24:37,300
were police well that's one piece of

582
00:24:44,250 --> 00:24:39,430
evidence that would say he didn't know

583
00:24:47,490 --> 00:24:44,260
yes so going back to the talk I like

584
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:47,500
everything about that talk except the

585
00:24:52,710 --> 00:24:50,050
part that I questioned is telling your

586
00:24:56,250 --> 00:24:52,720
chart I mean telling them what to do

587
00:24:58,530 --> 00:24:56,260
when interacting with police perfect why

588
00:25:00,870 --> 00:24:58,540
do you need to add on top of that oh and

589
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:00,880
by the way you know police are going to

590
00:25:04,980 --> 00:25:02,890
be coming to get you and you're unique

591
00:25:07,140 --> 00:25:04,990
and different and you got to really

592
00:25:09,780 --> 00:25:07,150
watch out for them because they don't

593
00:25:11,300 --> 00:25:09,790
necessarily like your type or however

594
00:25:15,540 --> 00:25:11,310
you gonna say that but basically

595
00:25:17,850 --> 00:25:15,550
alerting the child that police go after

596
00:25:19,800 --> 00:25:17,860
black people why is that part important

597
00:25:22,100 --> 00:25:19,810
to tell the kid as opposed to simply

598
00:25:26,730 --> 00:25:22,110
obey the police

599
00:25:28,980 --> 00:25:26,740
well because it's true for them I mean

600
00:25:30,810 --> 00:25:28,990
that's the lived experience but we said

601
00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:30,820
when we said right but we're

602
00:25:36,660 --> 00:25:33,730
acknowledging that 99% are good so you

603
00:25:39,330 --> 00:25:36,670
know to highlight the 1% bad I I just

604
00:25:43,830 --> 00:25:39,340
I'm just not sure that that's great for

605
00:25:45,690 --> 00:25:43,840
the psyche of a kid to be I'm just not

606
00:25:46,860 --> 00:25:45,700
sure that's important to be highlighted

607
00:25:49,140 --> 00:25:46,870
to a kid as long as you've highlighted

608
00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:49,150
the most important part which is obey

609
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:50,890
the police

610
00:25:57,120 --> 00:25:53,170
I just don't see the benefit of the

611
00:26:00,180 --> 00:25:57,130
other part well you and I aren't black I

612
00:26:04,350 --> 00:26:00,190
didn't instruct my kids that way either

613
00:26:07,170 --> 00:26:04,360
and I wasn't instructed that way but the

614
00:26:10,530 --> 00:26:07,180
reality of black life in this country

615
00:26:14,010 --> 00:26:10,540
has been since time out of mine that

616
00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:14,020
they suffer mistreatment at the hands of

617
00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:16,690
police much more often and I don't know

618
00:26:20,850 --> 00:26:19,450
that I'd be nailed to the figure of 99%

619
00:26:22,440 --> 00:26:20,860
I mean if we want to go into the

620
00:26:25,110 --> 00:26:22,450
statistics they're all there in the book

621
00:26:28,080 --> 00:26:25,120
what I would say is most police

622
00:26:31,350 --> 00:26:28,090
interactions go ahead and and and take

623
00:26:34,230 --> 00:26:31,360
place without any incident but it's more

624
00:26:37,950 --> 00:26:34,240
likely to happen to people who are black

625
00:26:39,360 --> 00:26:37,960
and brown things go wrong and that's

626
00:26:42,510 --> 00:26:39,370
just that's not something we could

627
00:26:44,130 --> 00:26:42,520
ignore and I don't think I'm in a

628
00:26:46,410 --> 00:26:44,140
position to tell black parents well

629
00:26:49,710 --> 00:26:46,420
you're going too far with that

630
00:26:51,390 --> 00:26:49,720
that if that is what happens to kids and

631
00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:51,400
the kid is gonna say why I mean why

632
00:26:55,740 --> 00:26:53,410
should I why do I have to show my hands

633
00:26:59,100 --> 00:26:55,750
what's really going on with that mom or

634
00:27:00,570 --> 00:26:59,110
dad how would the parent explain it you

635
00:27:02,370 --> 00:27:00,580
know well let's talk about I've never

636
00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:02,380
had the reason to let's talk about the

637
00:27:08,280 --> 00:27:05,250
difference between racism and

638
00:27:12,290 --> 00:27:08,290
stereotyping and do you see a difference

639
00:27:15,090 --> 00:27:12,300
between those two because oh yes yeah so

640
00:27:18,690 --> 00:27:15,100
it could very poppy very possible be

641
00:27:22,860 --> 00:27:18,700
that blacks are a quote/unquote victim

642
00:27:26,670 --> 00:27:22,870
of stereotyping without it being racism

643
00:27:29,550 --> 00:27:26,680
do you agree with that Oh certainly yeah

644
00:27:31,980 --> 00:27:29,560
and you have to break racism down I

645
00:27:34,170 --> 00:27:31,990
think - I mean we're - I think too

646
00:27:36,660 --> 00:27:34,180
likely in this country especially people

647
00:27:38,910 --> 00:27:36,670
may be my age I don't know about you but

648
00:27:40,650 --> 00:27:38,920
you know when people think racism a lot

649
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:40,660
of folks think well you know you got to

650
00:27:44,910 --> 00:27:42,730
say that word out loud you got to be

651
00:27:47,010 --> 00:27:44,920
willing to express those kind of things

652
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:47,020
like Archie Bunker in the old TV show

653
00:27:55,260 --> 00:27:51,010
that's one type of this problem

654
00:27:57,950 --> 00:27:55,270
one aspect of it but more subtle forms

655
00:28:01,380 --> 00:27:57,960
of what we call implicit bias or

656
00:28:03,090 --> 00:28:01,390
stereotyping that can unknowingly alter

657
00:28:06,060 --> 00:28:03,100
our behavior those are two pretty

658
00:28:09,300 --> 00:28:06,070
closest things those have actually more

659
00:28:11,030 --> 00:28:09,310
of an impact than people really realize

660
00:28:14,160 --> 00:28:11,040
or understand they're very widespread

661
00:28:18,240 --> 00:28:14,170
right society including by the way in

662
00:28:20,850 --> 00:28:18,250
black communities - the testing and the

663
00:28:22,320 --> 00:28:20,860
studying of these things for decades now

664
00:28:24,150 --> 00:28:22,330
over millions and millions of

665
00:28:27,120 --> 00:28:24,160
experiments and administrations is

666
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:27,130
pretty clear that kind of bias is

667
00:28:33,150 --> 00:28:29,770
actually very common you know what we

668
00:28:35,310 --> 00:28:33,160
have to understand is how this works not

669
00:28:38,100 --> 00:28:35,320
just on the overt level of people who

670
00:28:40,560 --> 00:28:38,110
use that n-word but on the level of

671
00:28:43,710 --> 00:28:40,570
people whose behavior is influenced by

672
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:43,720
what you're calling stereotypes and how

673
00:28:48,780 --> 00:28:46,930
that might impact a situation like a

674
00:28:51,510 --> 00:28:48,790
police interaction I give you one

675
00:28:53,340 --> 00:28:51,520
example many examples in the book of

676
00:28:55,470 --> 00:28:53,350
studies and so forth I don't want to get

677
00:28:58,710 --> 00:28:55,480
all nerdy on you but let's let's just

678
00:29:03,240 --> 00:28:58,720
give one example one team

679
00:29:08,340 --> 00:29:03,250
scientist exposed experimental subjects

680
00:29:12,029 --> 00:29:08,350
both white and black to a photo of a

681
00:29:14,159 --> 00:29:12,039
black person's face after seeing a black

682
00:29:17,460 --> 00:29:14,169
person's face of what's called a prime

683
00:29:21,029 --> 00:29:17,470
of a black person's face of priming they

684
00:29:24,870 --> 00:29:21,039
had much more of an ability to pick the

685
00:29:28,320 --> 00:29:24,880
outlines of a weapon out of a degraded

686
00:29:32,990 --> 00:29:28,330
hard to see visual image they were more

687
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:33,000
likely to pay attention to thoughts and

688
00:29:39,390 --> 00:29:36,370
hints about crime and when somebody was

689
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:39,400
primed with suggestions about crime

690
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:43,650
their eyes automatically went to

691
00:29:51,029 --> 00:29:47,770
pictures of african-american faces in a

692
00:29:52,830 --> 00:29:51,039
crowd all of this and an additional

693
00:29:56,430 --> 00:29:52,840
number of experiments went along with it

694
00:30:00,360 --> 00:29:56,440
showed that that seeing a black person

695
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:00,370
is effectively a visual tuning device

696
00:30:05,490 --> 00:30:03,010
for the brain right

697
00:30:07,470 --> 00:30:05,500
it brings thoughts of crime and when our

698
00:30:11,340 --> 00:30:07,480
thoughts of crime it brings you to black

699
00:30:14,340 --> 00:30:11,350
people all of this what would tend to

700
00:30:16,890 --> 00:30:14,350
explain like many other pieces of

701
00:30:19,350 --> 00:30:16,900
evidence that are out there that these

702
00:30:21,899 --> 00:30:19,360
situations are not neutral because of

703
00:30:24,690 --> 00:30:21,909
what you call stereotypes those things

704
00:30:28,260 --> 00:30:24,700
exist and they have an effect on

705
00:30:32,820 --> 00:30:28,270
people's behavior so two questions first

706
00:30:34,020 --> 00:30:32,830
says what has caused that stereotype how

707
00:30:37,649 --> 00:30:34,030
did that come about

708
00:30:39,930 --> 00:30:37,659
yeah well that that takes us back a long

709
00:30:41,960 --> 00:30:39,940
long way there's been evidence of that

710
00:30:45,210 --> 00:30:41,970
the dominant stereotype of

711
00:30:48,570 --> 00:30:45,220
african-americans in this country brings

712
00:30:50,940 --> 00:30:48,580
to mind for most people violence crime

713
00:30:53,549 --> 00:30:50,950
and danger those three things and

714
00:30:55,980 --> 00:30:53,559
there's the brings of tamiya it brings

715
00:30:58,169 --> 00:30:55,990
it to mind why is it because there's

716
00:31:03,180 --> 00:30:58,179
been a history of a greater percentage

717
00:31:06,350 --> 00:31:03,190
of crime among blacks than whites that

718
00:31:09,779 --> 00:31:06,360
there are greater numbers of arrests and

719
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:09,789
greater amount greater records of

720
00:31:12,100 --> 00:31:11,770
imprisonment but those things are not

721
00:31:13,750 --> 00:31:12,110
the

722
00:31:18,070 --> 00:31:13,760
same thing as greater amounts of

723
00:31:20,620 --> 00:31:18,080
criminality this comes from the culture

724
00:31:22,870 --> 00:31:20,630
that we all grow up in I said earlier

725
00:31:25,810 --> 00:31:22,880
that this was the dominant stereotype in

726
00:31:27,669 --> 00:31:25,820
American life of black people it exists

727
00:31:30,549 --> 00:31:27,679
in the minds of black people too it is

728
00:31:32,740 --> 00:31:30,559
not just a white people thing and it

729
00:31:35,080 --> 00:31:32,750
goes back literally decades have you

730
00:31:37,299 --> 00:31:35,090
ever seen the doll studies done by dr.

731
00:31:39,580 --> 00:31:37,309
Kenneth Clark or the updates of them

732
00:31:40,380 --> 00:31:39,590
where they show these little kids 5 6 7

733
00:31:43,090 --> 00:31:40,390
years old

734
00:31:45,970 --> 00:31:43,100
identical dolls one is black and one is

735
00:31:48,100 --> 00:31:45,980
white this is very basic basic science

736
00:31:49,480 --> 00:31:48,110
and in certain ways it works in certain

737
00:31:51,850 --> 00:31:49,490
ways it doesn't but then they asked the

738
00:31:54,070 --> 00:31:51,860
kids questions like which one is the

739
00:31:57,159 --> 00:31:54,080
pretty doll they picked the white doll

740
00:32:00,100 --> 00:31:57,169
which one is the mean doll they picked

741
00:32:02,350 --> 00:32:00,110
the black cow so on and so on and these

742
00:32:04,659 --> 00:32:02,360
were these were this work was so well

743
00:32:08,140 --> 00:32:04,669
established in the stereotypes so deep

744
00:32:10,049 --> 00:32:08,150
even as of 1950 that this stuff was

745
00:32:12,760 --> 00:32:10,059
cited in Brown versus Board of Education

746
00:32:14,409 --> 00:32:12,770
so it comes from the culture it comes

747
00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:14,419
from our caregivers it comes from our

748
00:32:18,850 --> 00:32:16,010
parents but we're talking specifically

749
00:32:21,340 --> 00:32:18,860
now about crime and when we hear about

750
00:32:23,140 --> 00:32:21,350
all the killings in Chicago it's not

751
00:32:25,630 --> 00:32:23,150
white people killing white people it's

752
00:32:29,190 --> 00:32:25,640
black people killing black people I mean

753
00:32:31,690 --> 00:32:29,200
the crime rate in the black community is

754
00:32:33,310 --> 00:32:31,700
certainly higher than in the white

755
00:32:35,080 --> 00:32:33,320
community I'm not saying it has anything

756
00:32:37,720 --> 00:32:35,090
to do with their race it has to do with

757
00:32:39,490 --> 00:32:37,730
the fact that its inner city and there's

758
00:32:42,549 --> 00:32:39,500
poverty and there's all kinds of issues

759
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:42,559
with the inner city but it's obviously

760
00:32:47,830 --> 00:32:45,650
crime is more common in poor inner

761
00:32:49,780 --> 00:32:47,840
cities around the world in our poor

762
00:32:52,060 --> 00:32:49,790
inner cities happen to have a great

763
00:32:55,480 --> 00:32:52,070
percentage of black so the percentage of

764
00:33:00,010 --> 00:32:55,490
crime among blacks is higher I don't

765
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:00,020
think that we can ignore that now the

766
00:33:05,799 --> 00:33:02,570
percentage of crime among people who are

767
00:33:08,010 --> 00:33:05,809
poor is higher okay all right and in the

768
00:33:12,039 --> 00:33:08,020
u.s. it happens to be unfortunately

769
00:33:15,340 --> 00:33:12,049
blacks yeah it's a it's a it's a

770
00:33:16,750 --> 00:33:15,350
correlation it's not a causation very

771
00:33:18,610 --> 00:33:16,760
important to separate that you would

772
00:33:20,860 --> 00:33:18,620
find that in any poor community like you

773
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:20,870
said anywhere in the world where there's

774
00:33:25,270 --> 00:33:23,450
deprivation or there's poor education

775
00:33:25,870 --> 00:33:25,280
where there's poor family structure

776
00:33:27,910 --> 00:33:25,880
those can

777
00:33:31,060 --> 00:33:27,920
any kind of communities that really

778
00:33:32,980 --> 00:33:31,070
doesn't involve race that's the the way

779
00:33:35,710 --> 00:33:32,990
that people are growing up and the way

780
00:33:38,860 --> 00:33:35,720
they respond to problems another aspect

781
00:33:40,630 --> 00:33:38,870
of that is that for years the justice

782
00:33:43,060 --> 00:33:40,640
system whether it's police or courts

783
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:43,070
whatever have not been responsive in

784
00:33:47,830 --> 00:33:45,290
those communities and so people and this

785
00:33:49,990 --> 00:33:47,840
is extremely unfortunate people are more

786
00:33:51,340 --> 00:33:50,000
likely to take things in their own hands

787
00:33:53,050 --> 00:33:51,350
when they want some measure of

788
00:33:55,480 --> 00:33:53,060
satisfaction they don't want the police

789
00:33:58,540 --> 00:33:55,490
in their communities that is the sign of

790
00:34:01,480 --> 00:33:58,550
a real breakdown and so we get some

791
00:34:04,210 --> 00:34:01,490
violence from that too yeah so that yeah

792
00:34:06,850 --> 00:34:04,220
that's so if the crime is primarily in

793
00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:06,860
the inner-city the question is do you

794
00:34:12,310 --> 00:34:09,050
want more policing in the inner-city or

795
00:34:14,860 --> 00:34:12,320
not you would think you would but you

796
00:34:16,750 --> 00:34:14,870
know if you have this back and forth

797
00:34:18,790 --> 00:34:16,760
where the inner city is not trusting the

798
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:18,800
police and saying stay out of my

799
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:22,450
community then you know you're gonna

800
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:25,010
there's gonna be a lot of law-abiding

801
00:34:27,970 --> 00:34:26,690
people in that community not very happy

802
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:27,980
that they're losing their police

803
00:34:33,159 --> 00:34:30,530
presence it's a terribly difficult

804
00:34:35,860 --> 00:34:33,169
problem for years black communities have

805
00:34:38,320 --> 00:34:35,870
had a twin problem it's both over

806
00:34:40,780 --> 00:34:38,330
enforcement and under enforcement right

807
00:34:43,570 --> 00:34:40,790
when when they call the police police

808
00:34:45,129 --> 00:34:43,580
don't come when they come sometimes they

809
00:34:47,409 --> 00:34:45,139
don't arrest the people who are

810
00:34:50,110 --> 00:34:47,419
responsible and the folks who called end

811
00:34:52,210 --> 00:34:50,120
up on the wrong side of the police this

812
00:34:56,710 --> 00:34:52,220
this is something that does not happen

813
00:35:01,120 --> 00:34:56,720
in my community and they don't want that

814
00:35:04,090 --> 00:35:01,130
sort of policing done it is perfectly it

815
00:35:06,850 --> 00:35:04,100
is perfectly true that you can have a

816
00:35:08,530 --> 00:35:06,860
good police presence in poor communities

817
00:35:11,380 --> 00:35:08,540
but it has to be a presence of people

818
00:35:12,670 --> 00:35:11,390
want yeah you know if what they think is

819
00:35:15,070 --> 00:35:12,680
you're going to have the New York

820
00:35:17,680 --> 00:35:15,080
treatment under both Giuliani and

821
00:35:19,510 --> 00:35:17,690
Bloomberg where basically every young

822
00:35:20,980 --> 00:35:19,520
kid gets stopped and frisked every time

823
00:35:23,200 --> 00:35:20,990
you send them down to the corner store

824
00:35:24,700 --> 00:35:23,210
they don't want that kind of policing so

825
00:35:26,260 --> 00:35:24,710
you can have lots of police there and

826
00:35:29,080 --> 00:35:26,270
the crime rate can even be going down

827
00:35:31,510 --> 00:35:29,090
and people will still resent the police

828
00:35:33,880 --> 00:35:31,520
presence it's a very difficult problem

829
00:35:35,620 --> 00:35:33,890
you know it's a question of the

830
00:35:39,520 --> 00:35:35,630
difference between having it done to you

831
00:35:43,150 --> 00:35:39,530
and done with you back to stereotyping

832
00:35:45,339 --> 00:35:43,160
is stereotyping inherently bad or wrong

833
00:35:48,310 --> 00:35:45,349
I mean don't you want the police looking

834
00:35:51,730 --> 00:35:48,320
with more suspicion at a 20 year old

835
00:35:53,710 --> 00:35:51,740
male than a 70 year old female a 20 year

836
00:35:54,760 --> 00:35:53,720
old male versus is 70 year old female

837
00:35:56,470 --> 00:35:54,770
yes I do

838
00:35:59,830 --> 00:35:56,480
I didn't want them looking more at one

839
00:36:01,780 --> 00:35:59,840
than the other the problem comes in when

840
00:36:03,790 --> 00:36:01,790
we look at whole communities through

841
00:36:05,620 --> 00:36:03,800
those stereotyping lenses and that's

842
00:36:08,349 --> 00:36:05,630
that's really been a difficult problem

843
00:36:10,780 --> 00:36:08,359
but I just like I just identified I just

844
00:36:13,230 --> 00:36:10,790
identified sex and age so you're saying

845
00:36:16,330 --> 00:36:13,240
you're okay with it based on sex and age

846
00:36:20,200 --> 00:36:16,340
but those actually do though has those

847
00:36:22,510 --> 00:36:20,210
have causative effects other things are

848
00:36:24,430 --> 00:36:22,520
too dangerous to use that way now if I

849
00:36:25,900 --> 00:36:24,440
have a description if I'm a police

850
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:25,910
officer and there's a description of a

851
00:36:30,730 --> 00:36:28,010
guy who just rap rob the 7-eleven and

852
00:36:33,430 --> 00:36:30,740
he's described as wearing you know red

853
00:36:36,040 --> 00:36:33,440
sweat suit high-top Nikes San Jose

854
00:36:37,870 --> 00:36:36,050
Sharks cap and he's black I'm not gonna

855
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:37,880
ignore that he's black that's part of a

856
00:36:42,310 --> 00:36:40,010
description that's legitimate what I

857
00:36:46,660 --> 00:36:42,320
don't think is legitimate and what is in

858
00:36:49,390 --> 00:36:46,670
fact dangerous is to say store robbed by

859
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:49,400
a black kid let's just look for black

860
00:36:53,589 --> 00:36:51,530
kids even though that that is one factor

861
00:36:55,470 --> 00:36:53,599
it's not definite enough and too often

862
00:36:58,030 --> 00:36:55,480
policing has been done at that level

863
00:37:00,579 --> 00:36:58,040
smart policing doesn't work that way

864
00:37:02,500 --> 00:37:00,589
they wouldn't use stereotypes they would

865
00:37:04,030 --> 00:37:02,510
use real descriptions when they have

866
00:37:06,609 --> 00:37:04,040
them and there's nothing wrong with that

867
00:37:08,650 --> 00:37:06,619
at all race is a good descriptor in fact

868
00:37:10,329 --> 00:37:08,660
it's better than clothes you take your

869
00:37:12,490 --> 00:37:10,339
clothes off and change you can't change

870
00:37:16,180 --> 00:37:12,500
your race so going back to the 18 year

871
00:37:18,900 --> 00:37:16,190
old Jordan miles if it were a seven year

872
00:37:23,130 --> 00:37:18,910
old woman with a bulge in her jackets

873
00:37:27,760 --> 00:37:23,140
this wouldn't have happened probably not

874
00:37:33,010 --> 00:37:27,770
probably not so the question is are we

875
00:37:36,849 --> 00:37:33,020
okay with the stereotype of responding

876
00:37:39,940 --> 00:37:36,859
differently to a black male a young

877
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:39,950
black male versus well that's less to

878
00:37:43,180 --> 00:37:41,570
say the real question here which is a

879
00:37:45,970 --> 00:37:43,190
which is a white a young white male

880
00:37:49,750 --> 00:37:45,980
let's make it about white and black yeah

881
00:37:52,420 --> 00:37:49,760
yeah yeah if it is true like I just

882
00:37:53,950 --> 00:37:52,430
pose it's true because I I think the

883
00:37:55,990 --> 00:37:53,960
statistics bear it out that's a higher

884
00:37:58,450 --> 00:37:56,000
rate among young black males than there

885
00:38:00,820 --> 00:37:58,460
are young white males is it okay for the

886
00:38:03,790 --> 00:38:00,830
police to use that stereotype as they

887
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:03,800
think about this guy they're looking at

888
00:38:07,720 --> 00:38:05,810
in that bulge in his pocket and whether

889
00:38:12,850 --> 00:38:07,730
that bulge is more or less likely to be

890
00:38:16,300 --> 00:38:12,860
a gun I would say what you need to look

891
00:38:18,160 --> 00:38:16,310
for is the Bulge not who's got it but if

892
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:18,170
it's the old lady with the Bulge who's

893
00:38:22,210 --> 00:38:19,970
grandma that's that's a whole different

894
00:38:24,640 --> 00:38:22,220
thing all right crime is a young

895
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:24,650
person's game and that's universally

896
00:38:28,930 --> 00:38:26,810
acknowledged it's true it's backed up by

897
00:38:33,400 --> 00:38:28,940
statistics there's also a male who gets

898
00:38:36,820 --> 00:38:33,410
arrested bail that's right and it's more

899
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:36,830
black it's not necessarily more black

900
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:39,290
what happens is you get more police in

901
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:42,290
those neighborhoods who are looking for

902
00:38:46,810 --> 00:38:43,370
it right

903
00:38:50,140 --> 00:38:46,820
take drugs okay drugs is a little easier

904
00:38:52,570 --> 00:38:50,150
drugs are everywhere people use drugs in

905
00:38:55,150 --> 00:38:52,580
direct proportion to their proportion of

906
00:38:58,300 --> 00:38:55,160
the United States population nobody uses

907
00:39:00,820 --> 00:38:58,310
it more or less often by race and yet

908
00:39:03,130 --> 00:39:00,830
there are many more police patrols in

909
00:39:04,930 --> 00:39:03,140
what we call high crime areas so if you

910
00:39:06,520 --> 00:39:04,940
look at their arrest statistics you'd

911
00:39:09,070 --> 00:39:06,530
find a lot more young black people

912
00:39:10,390 --> 00:39:09,080
getting arrested for those things and

913
00:39:12,340 --> 00:39:10,400
going to prison for but is that because

914
00:39:15,310 --> 00:39:12,350
it's business for the opportunity is

915
00:39:17,290 --> 00:39:15,320
well but also the business of drugs is

916
00:39:20,110 --> 00:39:17,300
taking place in those communities the

917
00:39:23,500 --> 00:39:20,120
gang it takes place it takes place

918
00:39:25,390 --> 00:39:23,510
everywhere everywhere well people buy it

919
00:39:27,880 --> 00:39:25,400
from people in their own racial groups

920
00:39:30,250 --> 00:39:27,890
yeah no no I totally agree with you but

921
00:39:31,920 --> 00:39:30,260
I'm just saying gangs are the ones that

922
00:39:35,020 --> 00:39:31,930
have turned this into a big criminal

923
00:39:36,370 --> 00:39:35,030
enterprise and that's taking place in

924
00:39:37,420 --> 00:39:36,380
those areas and you're trying to bust

925
00:39:40,540 --> 00:39:37,430
those enterprises

926
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:40,550
as opposed to the the guy who sells you

927
00:39:44,790 --> 00:39:43,370
a bag of weed you know at the your local

928
00:39:47,590 --> 00:39:44,800
7-eleven or what have you

929
00:39:49,180 --> 00:39:47,600
that may be but remember that that's a

930
00:39:51,580 --> 00:39:49,190
consequence of how we set up our

931
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:51,590
policing we could bust the guy in the

932
00:39:54,820 --> 00:39:53,690
7-eleven and if we wanted to that would

933
00:39:56,140 --> 00:39:54,830
be easy enough but but are you a

934
00:39:58,060 --> 00:39:56,150
criminal enterprise

935
00:39:59,770 --> 00:39:58,070
you know police have to might be the

936
00:40:02,500 --> 00:39:59,780
resources yeah where

937
00:40:04,090 --> 00:40:02,510
you're late but but that leads to I

938
00:40:08,700 --> 00:40:04,100
think a really important question that

939
00:40:11,350 --> 00:40:08,710
relates to all this and that is drugs I

940
00:40:14,320 --> 00:40:11,360
mean you know that was a question you

941
00:40:17,620 --> 00:40:14,330
said these officers asked about give us

942
00:40:20,410 --> 00:40:17,630
your guns and your drugs yeah so so it

943
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:20,420
just struck me like man what are these

944
00:40:27,760 --> 00:40:24,290
what are we doing out there look at all

945
00:40:31,390 --> 00:40:27,770
the harm and things that are happening

946
00:40:32,860 --> 00:40:31,400
as a result of these drug laws that

947
00:40:34,180 --> 00:40:32,870
these police feel that they need to go

948
00:40:36,250 --> 00:40:34,190
and risk their lives in these

949
00:40:38,020 --> 00:40:36,260
communities in Japanese other people's

950
00:40:39,910 --> 00:40:38,030
lives and what were they trying to do

951
00:40:43,390 --> 00:40:39,920
they're trying to see if he's got drugs

952
00:40:45,670 --> 00:40:43,400
on them yeah alcohol is legal everybody

953
00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:45,680
now basically at this point marijuana is

954
00:40:49,480 --> 00:40:47,810
basically legal in this country I mean I

955
00:40:51,220 --> 00:40:49,490
think if you polled the country they

956
00:40:53,500 --> 00:40:51,230
probably you know in it's just drop in

957
00:40:55,060 --> 00:40:53,510
state by state she already got alcohol

958
00:40:58,210 --> 00:40:55,070
you got marijuana

959
00:41:00,550 --> 00:40:58,220
you got prescription drugs etc etc and

960
00:41:03,340 --> 00:41:00,560
we've got our police out there worrying

961
00:41:05,920 --> 00:41:03,350
about a drug transaction happening on

962
00:41:09,070 --> 00:41:05,930
the street in the inner city just seems

963
00:41:11,260 --> 00:41:09,080
absurd yeah it is absurd and we are

964
00:41:14,470 --> 00:41:11,270
slowly but surely coming to our senses

965
00:41:18,760 --> 00:41:14,480
as a country there's a huge industry

966
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:18,770
behind wanting to enforce these laws and

967
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:20,930
lock people up behind them and that

968
00:41:26,350 --> 00:41:23,930
won't be easy to overcome but we already

969
00:41:27,790 --> 00:41:26,360
have what is it ten eleven states in the

970
00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:27,800
District of Columbia where it's legal

971
00:41:36,640 --> 00:41:32,530
for all purposes and it's illegal as

972
00:41:39,790 --> 00:41:36,650
medicine and how many more including my

973
00:41:41,530 --> 00:41:39,800
own Pennsylvania it's absurd to think

974
00:41:43,390 --> 00:41:41,540
that we're ever going to do anything but

975
00:41:45,850 --> 00:41:43,400
lose the war on drugs and so far that's

976
00:41:47,890 --> 00:41:45,860
pretty much all we've done not saying

977
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:47,900
drugs are harmless they're certainly not

978
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:50,090
not saying that people wouldn't be

979
00:41:53,980 --> 00:41:52,010
better off doing less of it but they'd

980
00:41:57,940 --> 00:41:53,990
be better off doing you know drinking

981
00:42:00,250 --> 00:41:57,950
less too but we just allow that to go on

982
00:42:03,460 --> 00:42:00,260
because we saw the folly of that after

983
00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:03,470
prohibition anything you make anything

984
00:42:10,630 --> 00:42:06,370
you make illegal creates an underground

985
00:42:14,500 --> 00:42:10,640
business and the enforcement yeah that's

986
00:42:16,210 --> 00:42:14,510
where the guns come in yeah that's right

987
00:42:17,980 --> 00:42:16,220
they jump out of the car not just

988
00:42:19,810 --> 00:42:17,990
selling where's your drug saying where's

989
00:42:21,340 --> 00:42:19,820
your drugs but where's your gun yeah

990
00:42:24,220 --> 00:42:21,350
because if you're going to get ripped

991
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:24,230
off as a dealer you're not gonna call

992
00:42:28,000 --> 00:42:26,450
the cops it's the big deterrent it's

993
00:42:29,950 --> 00:42:28,010
what you have to be ready to do the

994
00:42:32,260 --> 00:42:29,960
question I have is sorry to interrupt

995
00:42:35,770 --> 00:42:32,270
but you're talking about gangs is that

996
00:42:38,290 --> 00:42:35,780
you know clearly gangs are in the

997
00:42:42,610 --> 00:42:38,300
business of dealing drugs if we legalize

998
00:42:45,640 --> 00:42:42,620
drugs that whole business dries up for

999
00:42:47,020 --> 00:42:45,650
them my only slight concern would be are

1000
00:42:48,310 --> 00:42:47,030
they going to turn to some other

1001
00:42:51,690 --> 00:42:48,320
criminal behavior I don't know what that

1002
00:42:54,670 --> 00:42:51,700
would be but you know these cartels

1003
00:42:56,470 --> 00:42:54,680
south of the border they seem to be

1004
00:43:01,950 --> 00:42:56,480
morphing into other businesses whether

1005
00:43:05,530 --> 00:43:01,960
it be you know human trafficking mm-hmm

1006
00:43:08,140 --> 00:43:05,540
shaking down the local businesses you

1007
00:43:08,710 --> 00:43:08,150
know protection money etc they're not

1008
00:43:10,750 --> 00:43:08,720
going away

1009
00:43:14,110 --> 00:43:10,760
they just yeah throw into other things

1010
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:14,120
so I would love to see drugs legalized

1011
00:43:18,580 --> 00:43:16,610
because I think that it takes away a ton

1012
00:43:22,210 --> 00:43:18,590
of illegal dollars and there's just so

1013
00:43:24,370 --> 00:43:22,220
many benefits to it weed oh no I

1014
00:43:26,290 --> 00:43:24,380
completely agree with you and we could

1015
00:43:27,970 --> 00:43:26,300
then turn to treating it like what it is

1016
00:43:29,350 --> 00:43:27,980
which is a public health problem and

1017
00:43:32,230 --> 00:43:29,360
there are countries that have done this

1018
00:43:34,660 --> 00:43:32,240
not countries as big as ours but if you

1019
00:43:37,870 --> 00:43:34,670
look at Portugal Portugal basically

1020
00:43:40,660 --> 00:43:37,880
legalized everything not just weed years

1021
00:43:45,550 --> 00:43:40,670
ago and there are numbers of overdoses

1022
00:43:47,020 --> 00:43:45,560
went down dramatically the the amount of

1023
00:43:48,850 --> 00:43:47,030
public funds they have to spend to

1024
00:43:50,650 --> 00:43:48,860
suppress it went way down but am i right

1025
00:43:54,460 --> 00:43:50,660
that am i right that they decriminalized

1026
00:43:57,190 --> 00:43:54,470
it but they didn't legalize it they

1027
00:44:01,350 --> 00:43:57,200
decriminalized it but it is for all

1028
00:44:04,180 --> 00:44:01,360
intents and purposes legal up to the

1029
00:44:06,340 --> 00:44:04,190
like personal use of mounts but let me

1030
00:44:09,700 --> 00:44:06,350
ask you this question if you know can

1031
00:44:11,050 --> 00:44:09,710
you buy it there at you know like a if

1032
00:44:12,550 --> 00:44:11,060
you know about med men in California

1033
00:44:16,690 --> 00:44:12,560
here we have med man which is the

1034
00:44:18,610 --> 00:44:16,700
7-eleven of marijuana retailers do they

1035
00:44:21,520 --> 00:44:18,620
have that where it's actually taxed and

1036
00:44:23,650 --> 00:44:21,530
you can buy it legitimately I don't know

1037
00:44:25,690 --> 00:44:23,660
the answer to that what I do know is

1038
00:44:26,279 --> 00:44:25,700
that they have enough of a legal hook

1039
00:44:28,620 --> 00:44:26,289
not

1040
00:44:31,499 --> 00:44:28,630
criminal hook but that when they find

1041
00:44:35,819 --> 00:44:31,509
somebody who's in distress out on the

1042
00:44:37,949 --> 00:44:35,829
street they can't take them in and they

1043
00:44:40,620 --> 00:44:37,959
require them to sit for kind of an

1044
00:44:42,839 --> 00:44:40,630
interview with a panel of people one

1045
00:44:46,439 --> 00:44:42,849
person could be a cop but it's basically

1046
00:44:49,519 --> 00:44:46,449
social workers and doctors and they try

1047
00:44:52,109 --> 00:44:49,529
to get the person into treatment and

1048
00:44:54,120 --> 00:44:52,119
make sure that the you know whatever

1049
00:44:55,799 --> 00:44:54,130
health needs they might have are seen to

1050
00:44:58,349 --> 00:44:55,809
whether it's depression meds or clean

1051
00:45:01,349 --> 00:44:58,359
needles or whatever so it's reducing the

1052
00:45:03,599 --> 00:45:01,359
harm very drastically and now it's just

1053
00:45:06,299 --> 00:45:03,609
not the kind of problem it was for them

1054
00:45:08,159 --> 00:45:06,309
yeah well country we did a deep dive

1055
00:45:10,439 --> 00:45:08,169
here on the 12-step program which I am

1056
00:45:13,049 --> 00:45:10,449
not a fan of because it's success rate

1057
00:45:14,640 --> 00:45:13,059
is extremely low there's all kinds of

1058
00:45:16,289 --> 00:45:14,650
medical developments now and then

1059
00:45:19,259 --> 00:45:16,299
basically if demonstrated that this is a

1060
00:45:21,870 --> 00:45:19,269
form of a mental illness and so I 100%

1061
00:45:24,569 --> 00:45:21,880
agree this whole idea that oh the person

1062
00:45:26,669 --> 00:45:24,579
is just weak or what's wrong with that

1063
00:45:28,349 --> 00:45:26,679
what's wrong with this loser who keeps

1064
00:45:30,329 --> 00:45:28,359
going back to drugs or keeps going back

1065
00:45:33,329 --> 00:45:30,339
to alcohol and the parents kick them out

1066
00:45:35,579 --> 00:45:33,339
of the house say this person has a

1067
00:45:38,309 --> 00:45:35,589
mental disorder this person needs the

1068
00:45:41,130 --> 00:45:38,319
psychiatric yeah it's a disease disorder

1069
00:45:43,799 --> 00:45:41,140
but they need medical attention from an

1070
00:45:45,659 --> 00:45:43,809
MD and there are things out there for

1071
00:45:49,019 --> 00:45:45,669
these people have you heard of this drug

1072
00:45:51,569 --> 00:45:49,029
naloxone for alcoholics I had never

1073
00:45:53,999 --> 00:45:51,579
heard of this it's generic now a friend

1074
00:45:55,469 --> 00:45:54,009
of Mines life was basically saved by now

1075
00:45:58,259 --> 00:45:55,479
trach zone he had been in and out of

1076
00:45:59,759 --> 00:45:58,269
12-step for for many years but he takes

1077
00:46:01,109 --> 00:45:59,769
the strike now and when you take it it

1078
00:46:04,289 --> 00:46:01,119
you don't feel the effects of alcohol

1079
00:46:06,029 --> 00:46:04,299
and there's things out there for other

1080
00:46:08,459 --> 00:46:06,039
drugs also that are similar medications

1081
00:46:09,449 --> 00:46:08,469
not to mention things for depression or

1082
00:46:12,169 --> 00:46:09,459
so on you know whatever's causing

1083
00:46:15,569 --> 00:46:12,179
somebody to self-medicate with these

1084
00:46:17,159 --> 00:46:15,579
with these alcohol and drugs there's

1085
00:46:20,189 --> 00:46:17,169
things out there that addiction

1086
00:46:22,199 --> 00:46:20,199
specialist can provide but absolutely

1087
00:46:26,159 --> 00:46:22,209
getting people access to it or to even

1088
00:46:27,630 --> 00:46:26,169
know about it is very difficult yes

1089
00:46:29,519 --> 00:46:27,640
indeed you're right you're right I mean

1090
00:46:33,870 --> 00:46:29,529
it's just what we do with drugs in this

1091
00:46:35,939 --> 00:46:33,880
country is stupid on the best day let's

1092
00:46:38,130 --> 00:46:35,949
cover one more kind of hot-button issue

1093
00:46:40,020 --> 00:46:38,140
before we let you go and that's criminal

1094
00:46:42,150 --> 00:46:40,030
justice reform

1095
00:46:43,980 --> 00:46:42,160
which first of all baby you should

1096
00:46:46,740 --> 00:46:43,990
define it for us but you're hearing a

1097
00:46:48,900 --> 00:46:46,750
lot about criminal justice reform yeah

1098
00:46:51,090 --> 00:46:48,910
it's what I understand it seems to be

1099
00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:51,100
about reducing sentences for certain

1100
00:46:57,540 --> 00:46:55,210
crimes and eliminating certain criminal

1101
00:47:00,900 --> 00:46:57,550
laws it seems to me also there's kind of

1102
00:47:04,230 --> 00:47:00,910
an underlying elements that these laws

1103
00:47:06,930 --> 00:47:04,240
are either inherently discriminatory or

1104
00:47:10,200 --> 00:47:06,940
being enforced in a discriminatory

1105
00:47:11,250 --> 00:47:10,210
manner and therefore they should be

1106
00:47:13,710 --> 00:47:11,260
tossed out

1107
00:47:15,950 --> 00:47:13,720
yeah well criminal justice reform is a

1108
00:47:19,290 --> 00:47:15,960
pretty broad banner it includes

1109
00:47:21,770 --> 00:47:19,300
attention to mass incarceration and we

1110
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:21,780
incarcerate at a rate that is just

1111
00:47:29,010 --> 00:47:26,050
higher than any other country and we do

1112
00:47:31,410 --> 00:47:29,020
so at four lengths of time that are

1113
00:47:33,060 --> 00:47:31,420
higher than basically almost anywhere in

1114
00:47:35,190 --> 00:47:33,070
the world we are right up there with our

1115
00:47:39,060 --> 00:47:35,200
good friends China and Iran

1116
00:47:42,090 --> 00:47:39,070
why is our wives our rate so high why is

1117
00:47:44,820 --> 00:47:42,100
it such a high percentage it is because

1118
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:44,830
we are a more punitive country in the

1119
00:47:49,530 --> 00:47:47,530
sense that we use the criminal sanction

1120
00:47:51,720 --> 00:47:49,540
where a lot of other please just don't

1121
00:47:54,180 --> 00:47:51,730
for a lot of things so they would do

1122
00:47:56,130 --> 00:47:54,190
what changes to just find you or put you

1123
00:47:58,970 --> 00:47:56,140
on probation or something they would

1124
00:48:02,370 --> 00:47:58,980
find you it would be a civil infraction

1125
00:48:04,140 --> 00:48:02,380
and then and we put people away for so

1126
00:48:07,020 --> 00:48:04,150
much longer than most other Western

1127
00:48:08,610 --> 00:48:07,030
industrialized countries I mean when

1128
00:48:10,500 --> 00:48:08,620
people hear about what we do they are a

1129
00:48:12,450 --> 00:48:10,510
little surprised I can tell you that did

1130
00:48:14,280 --> 00:48:12,460
you think it going it's again the drug

1131
00:48:16,500 --> 00:48:14,290
laws is that what's making up the bulk

1132
00:48:19,380 --> 00:48:16,510
of actually part of the factors that's

1133
00:48:21,780 --> 00:48:19,390
the only part of it I mean we we use the

1134
00:48:25,830 --> 00:48:21,790
life-without-parole sanction forget for

1135
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:25,840
instance pretty indiscriminately in much

1136
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:28,570
more so than almost any other country we

1137
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:30,850
use solitary confinement in ways that

1138
00:48:36,450 --> 00:48:32,770
basically you don't see outside of a

1139
00:48:38,820 --> 00:48:36,460
place like Iran but but incarceration is

1140
00:48:40,770 --> 00:48:38,830
really only one piece of criminal

1141
00:48:44,100 --> 00:48:40,780
justice reform and includes reforming

1142
00:48:46,830 --> 00:48:44,110
cash bail systems it includes getting

1143
00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:46,840
rid of mandatory minimum sentences it

1144
00:48:50,780 --> 00:48:49,330
includes changes to drug laws like we

1145
00:48:53,460 --> 00:48:50,790
were just talking about whether

1146
00:48:56,730 --> 00:48:53,470
decriminalization full legalization or

1147
00:48:58,710 --> 00:48:56,740
thing else and it includes the impact I

1148
00:49:00,930 --> 00:48:58,720
mean what you said is really true it's

1149
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:00,940
sometimes the laws themselves are fine

1150
00:49:04,530 --> 00:49:03,010
it's how we're enforcing them it's who

1151
00:49:06,000 --> 00:49:04,540
they're getting enforced against it's

1152
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:06,010
where they're getting enforced as

1153
00:49:10,320 --> 00:49:07,810
opposed to other places one of the

1154
00:49:11,910 --> 00:49:10,330
reasons that frankly prohibition all

1155
00:49:14,070 --> 00:49:11,920
those years ago which was like a

1156
00:49:15,480 --> 00:49:14,080
national mental illness who knows why we

1157
00:49:17,849 --> 00:49:15,490
did that but one of the reasons that

1158
00:49:20,130 --> 00:49:17,859
people saw it is wrong was how unfairly

1159
00:49:21,720 --> 00:49:20,140
it was enforced all those years ago if

1160
00:49:23,580 --> 00:49:21,730
you had a little money and you knew

1161
00:49:25,710 --> 00:49:23,590
where to speakeasy was you get right in

1162
00:49:28,380 --> 00:49:25,720
drink all you want it if you were poor

1163
00:49:30,870 --> 00:49:28,390
it just wasn't the same and we've got

1164
00:49:33,839 --> 00:49:30,880
the same kind of things going on now so

1165
00:49:35,700 --> 00:49:33,849
all of these make up the broad arena of

1166
00:49:38,250 --> 00:49:35,710
criminal justice reform and what is so

1167
00:49:40,470 --> 00:49:38,260
interesting about it is how the left and

1168
00:49:42,630 --> 00:49:40,480
the right which agree on almost nothing

1169
00:49:45,870 --> 00:49:42,640
else have kind of come together around

1170
00:49:49,170 --> 00:49:45,880
this you have support from the Koch

1171
00:49:51,839 --> 00:49:49,180
brothers and George Soros for the same

1172
00:49:53,580 --> 00:49:51,849
sets of issues for instance just to pick

1173
00:49:57,540 --> 00:49:53,590
two people could not be further apart

1174
00:50:00,089 --> 00:49:57,550
and what role does race play in this

1175
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:00,099
whole movement would you say I say it

1176
00:50:04,820 --> 00:50:02,050
plays a big role because what we see

1177
00:50:07,859 --> 00:50:04,830
when we look at mass incarceration is

1178
00:50:11,190 --> 00:50:07,869
African Americans brown people generally

1179
00:50:13,230 --> 00:50:11,200
are disproportionately represented now

1180
00:50:15,510 --> 00:50:13,240
there are arguments just the same as you

1181
00:50:18,089 --> 00:50:15,520
made to me a few minutes ago well this

1182
00:50:20,700 --> 00:50:18,099
is a result of over offending but the

1183
00:50:23,970 --> 00:50:20,710
data don't really support that except in

1184
00:50:26,430 --> 00:50:23,980
a few very discrete categories when we

1185
00:50:29,750 --> 00:50:26,440
talk about drug enforcement when we talk

1186
00:50:31,530 --> 00:50:29,760
about other things they are

1187
00:50:34,260 --> 00:50:31,540
over-represented they get longer

1188
00:50:37,260 --> 00:50:34,270
sentences they get denied bail or have

1189
00:50:39,300 --> 00:50:37,270
to meet high cash bails and they get

1190
00:50:41,310 --> 00:50:39,310
harsher treatment from the system

1191
00:50:43,500 --> 00:50:41,320
generally then why people do across a

1192
00:50:45,510 --> 00:50:43,510
variety of dimensions it's just I mean

1193
00:50:47,130 --> 00:50:45,520
it's just true that's the the data

1194
00:50:49,890 --> 00:50:47,140
support this and they've supported it

1195
00:50:53,040 --> 00:50:49,900
for years and years so race is an issue

1196
00:50:54,780 --> 00:50:53,050
in terms of how the system works even if

1197
00:50:58,500 --> 00:50:54,790
the laws are perfectly neutral on their

1198
00:51:00,030 --> 00:50:58,510
face yeah it just concerns me to extent

1199
00:51:02,730 --> 00:51:00,040
that plays too large of a role and

1200
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:02,740
because yeah if they're offending at a

1201
00:51:07,900 --> 00:51:06,770
higher rate then that explains it

1202
00:51:10,810 --> 00:51:07,910
I just don't like the idea of saying

1203
00:51:13,090 --> 00:51:10,820
that oh because this law adversely

1204
00:51:15,460 --> 00:51:13,100
impacts this community at a higher rate

1205
00:51:19,540 --> 00:51:15,470
that makes the law discriminatory or

1206
00:51:21,490 --> 00:51:19,550
racist that's not its face no not on its

1207
00:51:23,680 --> 00:51:21,500
face it depends on how and where it's

1208
00:51:25,990 --> 00:51:23,690
enforced yeah right and the I mean the

1209
00:51:28,750 --> 00:51:26,000
drug laws are exhibit number one because

1210
00:51:30,460 --> 00:51:28,760
those get enforced at higher rates

1211
00:51:32,170 --> 00:51:30,470
against people doing this the same thing

1212
00:51:33,670 --> 00:51:32,180
as everybody else and then the question

1213
00:51:36,940 --> 00:51:33,680
again is you know if you want less

1214
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:36,950
enforcement do the law-abiding citizens

1215
00:51:40,960 --> 00:51:38,930
of these inner-city communities want

1216
00:51:44,380 --> 00:51:40,970
less enforcement I can tell you

1217
00:51:46,030 --> 00:51:44,390
personally I wish in my community there

1218
00:51:48,130 --> 00:51:46,040
was more police I hardly ever see a

1219
00:51:50,160 --> 00:51:48,140
police car at all I would be very happy

1220
00:51:52,720 --> 00:51:50,170
other than me having a baton speed limit

1221
00:51:55,990 --> 00:51:52,730
but other than that I'd be very happy to

1222
00:51:57,970 --> 00:51:56,000
see more police the merrier for me yeah

1223
00:52:00,400 --> 00:51:57,980
III don't think you would find anybody

1224
00:52:01,720 --> 00:52:00,410
who's a real citizen in the black

1225
00:52:04,060 --> 00:52:01,730
community saying we won't want less

1226
00:52:05,590 --> 00:52:04,070
enforcement what they might say to you

1227
00:52:08,290 --> 00:52:05,600
is they want a different kind of

1228
00:52:11,220 --> 00:52:08,300
enforcement I don't think there's any

1229
00:52:13,570 --> 00:52:11,230
real argument but that the police have

1230
00:52:16,200 --> 00:52:13,580
enforced a law differently in black

1231
00:52:18,610 --> 00:52:16,210
communities whether it's ignoring

1232
00:52:20,290 --> 00:52:18,620
citizen complaints that under

1233
00:52:22,750 --> 00:52:20,300
enforcement thing I talked about a few

1234
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:22,760
minutes ago or just doing it in ways it

1235
00:52:27,880 --> 00:52:25,490
would never be acceptable outside of

1236
00:52:31,210 --> 00:52:27,890
black and brown communities they want to

1237
00:52:33,190 --> 00:52:31,220
have good solid responsible enforcement

1238
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:33,200
and my experience is that when they get

1239
00:52:37,600 --> 00:52:35,450
that they're quite happy they like it

1240
00:52:39,340 --> 00:52:37,610
they support it what they don't like is

1241
00:52:41,410 --> 00:52:39,350
the type of enforcement they've often

1242
00:52:45,130 --> 00:52:41,420
gotten which is sort of just blanket

1243
00:52:49,030 --> 00:52:45,140
dragnet kinds of enforcement often with

1244
00:52:50,860 --> 00:52:49,040
a nice side order of rudeness and if not

1245
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:50,870
worse well it may be this the last thing

1246
00:52:54,550 --> 00:52:52,970
we'll touch on then because I think this

1247
00:52:57,160 --> 00:52:54,560
ties into that which is the

1248
00:53:01,030 --> 00:52:57,170
militarization of the police the body

1249
00:53:02,350 --> 00:53:01,040
cams etc I mean the the the you know guy

1250
00:53:04,060 --> 00:53:02,360
in the corner that would help the kids

1251
00:53:06,160 --> 00:53:04,070
across the street kind of police officer

1252
00:53:09,900 --> 00:53:06,170
doesn't seem to exist anymore

1253
00:53:13,240 --> 00:53:09,910
they're all decked out with body armor

1254
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:13,250
cameras etc you know it's kind of hard

1255
00:53:16,330 --> 00:53:15,050
to just be relaxed to be yourself you

1256
00:53:18,220 --> 00:53:16,340
know there's a camera running all the

1257
00:53:19,870 --> 00:53:18,230
time whether you're the police officer

1258
00:53:20,240 --> 00:53:19,880
or the person interacting with the

1259
00:53:22,910 --> 00:53:20,250
police

1260
00:53:25,010 --> 00:53:22,920
officers so how do you feel about this

1261
00:53:28,310 --> 00:53:25,020
militarization and also specifically

1262
00:53:29,950 --> 00:53:28,320
body cams militarization is not a good

1263
00:53:32,990 --> 00:53:29,960
thing for the police whether it is the

1264
00:53:37,250 --> 00:53:33,000
overuse of Splott teams which is very

1265
00:53:39,950 --> 00:53:37,260
common or it's the the you the obtaining

1266
00:53:41,960 --> 00:53:39,960
by police departments of large-scale

1267
00:53:44,180 --> 00:53:41,970
military surplus equipment from the

1268
00:53:45,380 --> 00:53:44,190
Pentagon these are not good thing is

1269
00:53:47,390 --> 00:53:45,390
they're generally not what the police

1270
00:53:49,790 --> 00:53:47,400
need and they they put a warrior

1271
00:53:50,360 --> 00:53:49,800
attitude over enforcement and that's not

1272
00:53:52,970 --> 00:53:50,370
healthy

1273
00:53:55,940 --> 00:53:52,980
I mean a domestic law enforcement is not

1274
00:53:58,730 --> 00:53:55,950
a war when a lot of that is a post 9-11

1275
00:54:01,610 --> 00:53:58,740
thing right exactly we've had armed up

1276
00:54:03,440 --> 00:54:01,620
our local police to be prepared for

1277
00:54:05,930 --> 00:54:03,450
terrorism which you know I do want them

1278
00:54:08,180 --> 00:54:05,940
to be prepared for terrorism but you

1279
00:54:10,310 --> 00:54:08,190
have what you have no yeah it's not good

1280
00:54:12,950 --> 00:54:10,320
if and and the way it influences the

1281
00:54:14,780 --> 00:54:12,960
thinking to turn our police into

1282
00:54:17,360 --> 00:54:14,790
warriors in a war I mean in war EF

1283
00:54:19,820 --> 00:54:17,370
casualty in a war you have collateral

1284
00:54:22,400 --> 00:54:19,830
damage and it's all kind of acceptable

1285
00:54:25,190 --> 00:54:22,410
that's not what local policing is or

1286
00:54:26,990 --> 00:54:25,200
ever should be on body cameras I mean

1287
00:54:29,240 --> 00:54:27,000
early on I'll tell you I was a believer

1288
00:54:32,390 --> 00:54:29,250
I was one of the very first people to

1289
00:54:33,830 --> 00:54:32,400
write a serious academic treatment about

1290
00:54:35,620 --> 00:54:33,840
body cameras and what they could do

1291
00:54:38,750 --> 00:54:35,630
because I saw these things in action

1292
00:54:41,240 --> 00:54:38,760
before 2010 and I was really taken with

1293
00:54:44,060 --> 00:54:41,250
them I think you know we have to look at

1294
00:54:46,220 --> 00:54:44,070
it now and today there are some things

1295
00:54:49,130 --> 00:54:46,230
they can do they are not like any

1296
00:54:50,480 --> 00:54:49,140
technology police get they are not gonna

1297
00:54:53,210 --> 00:54:50,490
solve every problem and I think

1298
00:54:56,990 --> 00:54:53,220
expectations were set much too high for

1299
00:54:59,060 --> 00:54:57,000
these things they can record some of

1300
00:55:00,740 --> 00:54:59,070
what happens in an interaction they

1301
00:55:03,710 --> 00:55:00,750
won't get all of it they only get what's

1302
00:55:05,180 --> 00:55:03,720
in the lens and sometimes things will go

1303
00:55:08,060 --> 00:55:05,190
wrong with them and sometimes officers

1304
00:55:10,460 --> 00:55:08,070
will not use them and what we have as a

1305
00:55:12,470 --> 00:55:10,470
result is I think a pretty imperfect

1306
00:55:13,940 --> 00:55:12,480
situation where now the community and

1307
00:55:15,980 --> 00:55:13,950
the people out there the first thing I

1308
00:55:18,590 --> 00:55:15,990
say well what where's the tape where is

1309
00:55:20,930 --> 00:55:18,600
the recording and if they can't get it

1310
00:55:22,460 --> 00:55:20,940
immediately they're dissatisfied if it

1311
00:55:24,290 --> 00:55:22,470
doesn't show anything much or show

1312
00:55:26,240 --> 00:55:24,300
anything definitive they're dissatisfied

1313
00:55:28,490 --> 00:55:26,250
so I'd have to say it's a pretty mixed

1314
00:55:30,590 --> 00:55:28,500
picture with cameras the thing is

1315
00:55:33,320 --> 00:55:30,600
cameras are out there they're everywhere

1316
00:55:33,660 --> 00:55:33,330
so in a certain sense law enforcement

1317
00:55:36,930 --> 00:55:33,670
was just

1318
00:55:39,510 --> 00:55:36,940
late to the party right and they were

1319
00:55:43,170 --> 00:55:39,520
responding to the fact that they were

1320
00:55:45,299 --> 00:55:43,180
being recorded all the time I think what

1321
00:55:47,849 --> 00:55:45,309
we have to understand is that those

1322
00:55:49,740 --> 00:55:47,859
cameras are can be a good thing they can

1323
00:55:51,630 --> 00:55:49,750
help but they're never going to tell the

1324
00:55:53,579 --> 00:55:51,640
full story yeah well one thing I think

1325
00:55:58,799 --> 00:55:53,589
is for sure is it's probably the hardest

1326
00:56:00,839 --> 00:55:58,809
time ever to be a cop it's difficult job

1327
00:56:03,059 --> 00:56:00,849
on the best of days that's for sure and

1328
00:56:05,789 --> 00:56:03,069
I think generally speaking people

1329
00:56:07,500 --> 00:56:05,799
understand that what I think they hate I

1330
00:56:09,930 --> 00:56:07,510
think what civilians sometimes have a

1331
00:56:11,940 --> 00:56:09,940
hard time with is not understand is they

1332
00:56:13,680 --> 00:56:11,950
don't understand why the police never

1333
00:56:16,500 --> 00:56:13,690
seem to be to blame for anything that

1334
00:56:18,150 --> 00:56:16,510
goes wrong right I understand if police

1335
00:56:20,609 --> 00:56:18,160
are brave and they're very courageous

1336
00:56:23,609 --> 00:56:20,619
people and they do things that I

1337
00:56:25,980 --> 00:56:23,619
wouldn't do for twice what they make as

1338
00:56:27,630 --> 00:56:25,990
our former president used to say they're

1339
00:56:30,450 --> 00:56:27,640
the ones who run toward the danger when

1340
00:56:33,870 --> 00:56:30,460
the rest of us would run away I couldn't

1341
00:56:36,059 --> 00:56:33,880
disagree with any of that but what I

1342
00:56:38,670 --> 00:56:36,069
think has been missing from the picture

1343
00:56:41,849 --> 00:56:38,680
for a long time is police haven't been

1344
00:56:43,589 --> 00:56:41,859
transparent with the public and I'm not

1345
00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:43,599
saying they should disclose details of

1346
00:56:48,359 --> 00:56:45,130
an investigation before it's over

1347
00:56:49,920 --> 00:56:48,369
nothing like that but too often not just

1348
00:56:52,230 --> 00:56:49,930
in Pittsburgh but pretty much everywhere

1349
00:56:54,150 --> 00:56:52,240
the answer has been we can't tell you

1350
00:56:55,680 --> 00:56:54,160
that leave it to us

1351
00:56:57,299 --> 00:56:55,690
trust us and the result has been if

1352
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people actually have come to trust them

1353
00:57:01,799 --> 00:56:59,980
less and that is really bad that's not

1354
00:57:03,780 --> 00:57:01,809
good for them and it's not good for us

1355
00:57:06,180 --> 00:57:03,790
thank you again to our guest David

1356
00:57:08,549 --> 00:57:06,190
Harris you can go to Amazon to buy his

1357
00:57:10,859 --> 00:57:08,559
book and you should also check out his

1358
00:57:13,740 --> 00:57:10,869
criminal injustice podcast also go to

1359
00:57:15,780 --> 00:57:13,750
patreon to join us become a truther for

1360
00:57:17,520 --> 00:57:15,790
just $5 per month thank you to our

1361
00:57:19,500 --> 00:57:17,530
producer Michael Parker we'll be back

1362
00:57:23,109 --> 00:57:19,510
with another episode of the hidden truth

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00:57:27,849 --> 00:57:25,150
thank you for listening at the injured

1364
00:57:31,120 --> 00:57:27,859
show with Jim Breslow you can find us at

1365
00:57:33,969 --> 00:57:31,130
hidden truths show com follow us on

1366
00:57:36,219 --> 00:57:33,979
Facebook Twitter and Instagram that he

1367
00:57:39,009 --> 00:57:36,229
in the truth show join us again next

1368
00:57:41,240 --> 00:57:39,019
week for another episode of hatred show